[ausev] "Why a hydrogen economy doesn't make sense"

[jefoy at mindspring.com]

>From a pollution standpoint there is a lot a sense to using H2 - if it is pure H2, basically said - no carbon in the reaction. With a H2 based system there is no CO2 or CO production as there is in any hydrocarbon based system. The argument gets gray when they talk about cracking methane for hydrogen fuel cells, there is still residual carbon to deal with. Using H2 in a classic ICE still introduces Nitrogen compounds that need to be dealt with but no carbon compounds.

While range is an issue, it is largely one fueled by the unwillingness of the public to accept that 200 miles per week is more than most people drive. Electric has the advantage of home fueling. H2 might have this as well with natural gas cracking technology. If you don't need to make a trip to the gas station, range becomes almost a non issue except for highway travellers. 

That issue by itself can be the deciding factor. Regardless of range, fueling a H2 vehicle will be faster than charging an electric one. 

One approach I would like to see discussed is standardized battery packs with quick mounting systems. Without the cost of the battery, electric vehicles are largely affordable. If the battery pack was a leased item, owned by Exxon, it could be exchanged for a fully charged one at any Exxon station in a matter of fifteen minutes. The discharged pack is put on a computerized charging station where it is carefully monitored. Age and condition of the pack are tracked by a database so it can be efficiently maintained and replaced as it ages. Since you can exchange a discharged battery for a full one, you no longer need to factor in the multi-hour recharge time. If you just commute, charge from home with minimal cost. If you travel, pay Exxon for providing a fully charged battery at a rate comparable to buying a tank of gas. Everyone wins..

Jack

-----Original Message-----
>From: Erik Bigelow <electricbasset at gmail.com>
>Sent: Dec 13, 2006 12:00 PM
>To: tomsmail at wtez.net, AustinEV News Announcements and General Discussion <ausev at austinev.org>
>Subject: Re: [ausev] "Why a hydrogen economy doesn't make sense"
>
>As much as I'm for more development in ANY electric vehicles - I
>believe a rising technological tide raises all ships - I don't see the
>attraction to H2. What Hydrogen is lacking is a reason for being used
>at all.
>
>>From Toyota.com:
>
>"In a well-to-wheel comparison, a gasoline-powered Prius is actually
>more efficient than a typical hydrogen-powered FCV. Toyota estimates
>that Prius has a well-to-wheel efficiency of 29% versus 22% for a
>typical FCV. How can this be? The answer lies in the expenditure of
>energy involved in producing and transporting hydrogen."
>
>We've already got something that gets us far, gasoline, and it's W2W
>efficiency beats hydrogen.
>
>Also from Tesla Motors:
>
>http://www.teslamotors.com/learn_more/energy_efficiency.php?js_enabled=1
>
>Granted both of those sources could have a conflict of interest in the
>data reported, but I've heard the same thing in a college Thermal
>Fluids class (basically combustion). Hydrogen may have good reasons
>for being used in special applications, but doesn't make the cut for
>the consumer transportation industry.
>
>Erik
>
>On 12/13/06, tomsmail <tomsmail at wtez.net> wrote:
>> While its true that grid to batteries has a much higher
>> cycle efficiency, hydrogen has one important redeeming
>> quality - it can get you from point A to point B when the
>> distance between them is large.  My daily driver (3600 Lb
>> 4-door sedan) can go 400 miles without refueling.  Batteries
>> as yet can't do that.  Why does Ulf think that THAT is a
>> niche market?
>>
>> In the end, the predominant economy will be based on how
>> much on-board STORAGE can be achieved, not by total system
>> efficiency; and batteries may yet prevail.  For the short
>> term, H2 has some advantages for vehicles that are not small
>> single or dual occupant commuters.
>>
>> It's unfortunate that most of the arguments are driven by
>> politics or by cults of personality against the President.
>> I wish the best for both H2 FCEV and BEV transportation
>> development.  In fact they will each benefit from the other.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> > Physorg Article "Why a hydrogen economy doesn't make
>> > sense"
>> >
>> > The graphic at the top is the best summary I've ever seen
>> > of the  efficiency difference.
>> >
>> > http://www.physorg.com/news85074285.html
>> >
>> >
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