[ausev] FW: anyone heard of these guys?

Fri Dec 14 02:16:48 GMT 2007

From: dbecker215 at hotmail.comTo: chris at chrisrobison.orgSubject: RE: [ausev] anyone heard of these guys?Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 20:16:03 -0600

I'm not as familiar with all that ya'll are talking about but for another comparison for the wh/$ for lithium the Valence batteries(Ucharge system i think) comes out to be about $1.56/wh for a small purchase, ie one vehicle. They charge about $2000 per battery(for limited quantity) at 1280 wh. If you purchase more you get a larger discount (40% for 1000 units). Now I know there is significant differences in their battery technology; they have a layout similar to lead acids (same dimensions), as well as an integrated battery management system into each battery. It seems like they would be a much better purchase for current lithium than this other company mentioned, more bang for the buck.  Donovan P.S. These numbers are a few months old and could very well be outdated now. > From: eeyore at phototropia.org> To: ausev at austinev.org> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:50:52 -0600> Subject: Re: [ausev] anyone heard of these guys?> > On Thu, 2007-12-13 at 16:37 -0600, Brian Lasseter wrote:> > > I also agree to your $164 price for the T145. I was pulling the $100> > price from Uve's page, that was my bad.> > Unfortunately battery prices are rising rapidly these days, so it's hard> to keep up. Any time I ask for a quote, I get asked what the time frame> is when I'll be getting them. No one wants to make an estimate for too> long. The Comal guy is nice enough to warn you of an expected price> hike.> > What's really weird is this, which came up on the EVDL recently:> > http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/fds/hi/business/market_data/commodities/11641/default.stm> > Has anyone seen this? Check the drop box to see the 3-month time> window. Prices for lead have been *falling* since mid-October! Maybe> it's just a momentary aberration, but what gives?> > > > > "Monetary" energy density: :o) (excluding one-time costs)> > > T145: $.157/Wh ($164/batt)> > > LifeBatt: 1.25Wh/$> > > ---> > > Lead is 10x to as little as 5x more expensive, depending on price of> > > lead battery> > > > While your Specific energy and Volumetric energy density numbers I> > concur with, The "Monetary" energy density does not seem to correlate> > with the prices on their web page:> > http://www.lifebatt.com/LiFeBATT%20Web_4.html> > > > They want $440 per 8 cells ordered, 8 cells weighs 2.872kg, that's> > $153.20/kg of batteries. Dividing $153.20/kg by 80Wh/kg gives you> > $1.915/Wh for the raw cells, or 12x the cost of the T145 at $.157/Wh.> > Ah? Ah? Hmmm? *BZZZT!* No! Still an idiot. <sigh> (I mean, mistakes are> mistakes, but ouch, *how* did I miss that page? It was *right there* in> the menu!) Sorry guys, my bad on that one. And another mistake in units> too, below...> > I am not following your calculations involving weight, and I may not> have communicated what I meant properly. By "monetary energy density" I> was trying to be humorous and just meant how many watt hours they're> "fitting into" a dollar. So I calculated in simple terms of dollars per> watt hour, not incorporating any other measure. > > According to LifeBatt, 8 cells, containing 32Wh apiece gives you 256> total Wh in the set. And they're selling those 256 total watt hours for> $440. That works out to $1.72/Wh retail. This is not so high that I> doubt its veracity, but in my pretty inexperienced opinion it is an> unreasonably high price to pay even for small quantity retail. Hopefully> they have more sensible dealer prices, though they'd have to come down a> lot from that number to be in the running, as you pointed further below> in your post.> > I've been quoted as low as 75 cents per watt hour (unconfirmed estimate> from manufacturer) for decent cells as a dealer price, and most are> above that.> > > If you want the battery management system, which is required to get> > the 2 year warranty, then it's $2.350/Wh for the raw cells, or 15x the> > cost of the T145 at $.157/Wh. This, of course, does not even include> > the cost of making their cells into a car battery.> > Configured with a BMS (but supply your own charger), LifeBatt is asking> $100 more for a circuit that only watches over 8 cells. I'm pretty> ignorant on this topic, but with what little I know it seems> unnecessarily excessive to me. It raises the price to $2.10/Wh. Soon> I'll be getting good competitive figures on managed modules and at least> in the near term I'll be able to say to some extent how reasonable that> is.> > > > Maybe in the quantities that you would need for an electric vehicle> > you could get LifeBatt down to 1.25Wh/$.> > I mixed up my units and confused things, though I think you may have> noticed the error. I should have quoted both batteries in terms of> dollars per watt hour to keep it consistent. So again the typical> lithium battery wholesale I was talking about was $.80/Wh, I've seen as> low as $.75/Wh, and the wholesale on the LifeBatts is currently unknown> but retail is $1.72/Wh. I wouldn't even try to form comparisons on this> price. It's way above what you should expect to pay.> > And of course, energy isn't the only measure of battery value, there's> also those three varieties of power density as well. Maybe less> important for those who aren't interested in high performance> applications, but important to me :o)> > --chris> > > > P.S. Writing that previous post was actually a bit complicated; maybe it> excuses my missing that price page somewhat (?). (Non-nerds may want to> skip the rest. I think it's funny, but I'm probably wrong.) I was adding> to it little by little during the day yesterday whenever I had a minute> (while waiting for programs to compile, etc) over the span of about 4> hours. When I was *almost* done and was proofreading to make sure I> hadn't gotten too inconsistent from intermittent writing, my email> program got stuck in a loop and froze, hard disk in a nonstop frenzy. I> noticed it was continuing to eat memory, and in about 30 minutes as I> waited to see if it would come back, it ate up about 1.8GB of RAM,> mostly swap space. Being a good little Linux geek, I opened gdb (command> line debugger), attached to the process, interrupted it and forced a> coredump (writing contents of RAM to disk). Which failed, because I> didn't have enough space in the swap partition left to process the dump.> So I created a temporary swap file, tried again, and then spent a couple> hours sifting through the segmented and scattered contents of the mail> program's digital vomit puddle, finding relevant chunks and nuggets and> eventually putting the email back together. I could have retyped it in> less time, but there was an ego thing involved.> > > _______________________________________________> AusEV mailing list> AusEV at austinev.org> http://www.austinev.org/mailman/listinfo/ausev

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