[ausev] Electric is good, but ...
Gil Dawson
Gil at Gil.Dawson.name
Wed May 16 09:17:37 GMT 2007
One significant challenge with closed-cycle thermal engines is
dissipating the heat. A locomotive sends heat away with the spent
steam, and ICE out the exhaust pipe. A Stirling engine makes use of
the flow of heat from a hot place to a cooler one. Keeping the
cooler one cooler can be a power-limiting challenge. Closed-cycle
steam cars require a condenser to dissipate the heat, and the design
of condensers is a study in itself.
>From
http://nationalaviation.blade6.donet.com/components/content_manager_v02/view_nahf/htdocs/menu_ps.asp?NodeID=-1182655547&group_ID=1134656385&Parent_ID=-1
:
William Lear, inventor of the eight-track tape, "developed an
external combustion, vapor-driven turbine engine which had very low
emissions and was capable of powering a transit bus. But the
undertaking was a massive one, involving a myriad of difficult
problems. After investing $17 million from his own pocket, Lear was
forced to conclude that while his engine was operationally
successful, it was not as fuel efficient as a conventional engine."
Note that Lear's design was closed-cycle and that the working fluid
was not water. Some have argued that efficiency was not Lear's most
significant problem, but rather the hegemony of the US automobile
orthodoxy. Most engines are never operated at their most efficient
speed all the time, anyway. Nevertheless, efficiency is not the only
thing that makes steam propulsion attractive. From the book "Taken
for a Ride" by Jack Doyle:
The Rankine Cycle engine was not a "Stanley Steamer" type engine, but
rather, a modern engine that ran quietly and smoothly with good
acceleration and very low emissions. Government reports and
non-industry inventors found that the Rankine engine showed promise
as a propulsion system for modern automobiles. An October 1967 US
Department of Commerce study concluded that such engines "potentially
offer a satisfactory alternative to the present automobile and should
have very low pollution and noise."
For an interesting article on modern steam power systems:
http://www.energypulse.net/centers/article/article_display.cfm?a_id=935
Be sure to read the Comments at the end of the article.
--Gil
At 10:23 P -0500 5/15/07, Moe Pitman wrote:
>Another external-combustion option for on-board power generation is the
>Stirling engine. It's possible to design a hermetically sealed unit
>containing a linear electric alternator with very few moving parts. It
>also would operate at lower pressure differentials than steam, and not
>require liquid/vapor conversions. And Stirling engines can operate at
>fairly low temperature differentials, though higher differentials are
>more efficient.
>
>Stirlings don't make very good car engines because they don't provide
>fast, on-demand acceleration. But they are well suited for steady,
>continuous, constant-speed applications - like power generation.
>
>I've often thought a Stirling system might make a simple car
>air-conditioner, too. It's the same tech as the heat pump, and they are
>even used for cryogenics, to liquefy various gases.
>
>Just a thought.
>
>--Moe
>
>On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 12:20 -0500, Ellison, Tom F. wrote:
>> This is good fun yall. We seem to be in the tool development stage, or
>> maybe it's retooling, the automobile. And then there is all the process
>> stuff to work out that has as big or bigger bearing on the evolutionary
>> pathway. I'm thinking Ford and the auto and Gates&Jobs on the personal
>> computer. While you inventors create options, us consumers keep watch
>> for what we think will be cost-effective in our daily lives. When tool
>> and process come together for a new paradigm it's something special. It
>> seems we have a ways to go yet. I suppose the good news is that
>> cost-effectiveness has finally come to have a full measure of
>> environmental "green" to it.
>>
>> Keep on Truckin
>> Tom
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ausev-bounces at austinev.org [mailto:ausev-bounces at austinev.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sarah & Erik
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 12:01 PM
>> To: AustinEV News Announcements and General Discussion
>> Subject: Re: [ausev] Electric is good, but ...
>>
>> I'd like to recant a little bit of what I said about steam powered
>> cars, there are some impressive vehicles that run on steam, just not
>> turbine based ones, and they tend to be safe and clean. Very cool.
>> Promise this is my last steamy post.
>>
>> Erik
>>
>> On 5/15/07, Arnaud LACOUR <arnaud.lacour at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Reading through your document, everything seems reasonable except for
>> > the fact that in current hybrids, the IC is used for propulsion as
>> > well as recharching and the electric motors are not powerful enough to
>> > get the car to highway speed. Replacing the IC with your EC steam
>> > engine wouldn't quite cut it. It looks like a doable thing on a
>> > currently all-electric vehicle which would already have powerful
>> > enough electric motors. The added weight of the steam engine could
>> > potentially be compensated by reprogramming the controller for example
>> > or swap a more powerful motor in.
>> >
>> > On 5/15/07, John Rumsey <beesidemeusa at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> > > EV's that I have read about either have low speeds,
>> > > short ranges, high cost and long recharge times [when
>> > > you can find a place to plug in], or some cobination
>> > > of these. There is definitely a place for the EV in
>> > > the mix of vehicles. I have not yet seen an EV that
>> > > will go 400 mi.at highway speeds, recharge in 5 min
>> > > and cost about the same as an IC hybrid. Since the
>> > > idea is to have less pollution there is another way to
>> > > go.
>> > >
>> > > Start with a plug-in EV that has short range, for
>> > > those little trips, for slow traffic, but which could
>> > > go 100 mph. Use the lowest pollution engine to drive
>> > > an on board alternator which keeps the batteries
>> > > charged for long trips. External Combustion has the
>> > > least pollution because using a forced air flame
>> > > results in very complete combustion. Biofuels work
>> > > very well in EC use, while in IC engines they still
>> > > require petroleum blends to run "properly" and still
>> > > produce unburned hydrocarbons and other pollutants.
>> > > Biofuels simply recycle CO2 and add no more to the
>> > > atmosphere, which is the aim of using EC.
>> > >
>> > > An EC engine is a steam engine. The majority of
>> > > electricity is produced by steam power, why not in
>> > > vehicles too? I have attached my ideas so far. I wish
>> > > I had $ and thumbs that would work [2 left ones] so I
>> > > could build it. I would like to see someone do it and
>> > > would like to discuss the idea further.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
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