[ausev] Austin Energy Green Choice...

Tue Jan 15 15:45:28 GMT 2008

I think an analogy would be: You can't tell exactly how much current 
comes from each battery (source) in your EV (but close and you try to 
make it even). You also can't tell how much electricity comes from each 
source on the grid (wind power, natural gas, coal, etc.).  This is 
because they are all interconnected and the electricity flow follows the 
laws of physics, not the laws of accounting.  Accounting is just how we 
have to deal with it.

But buying into GreenChoice (and others if not in Austin or San Antonio) 
DOES mean that the wind electricity is getting generated somewhere and 
used somewhere because of your (of the provider's) choice.

For those interested, see the document in the link below that claims to 
figure out some of the accounting associated with wind power - Existing 
wind saved Texans $476 million in 2006. 5,250 MW of new wind will reduce 
payments to generators by $1.278 billion and reduce statewide emissions 
3-5%.

www.windcoalition.org/PDFs/wind_transmission_analysis.pdf 
<http://www.windcoalition.org/PDFs/wind_transmission_analysis.pdf>* *

Carey

Sarah & Erik wrote:
> This is straying off topic, but I use GreenChoice to power my EV so
> I'll chime in. =)
>
> When you plug in a toaster or anything, and get power out of your
> wallsocket, you have absolutely *no* idea where the power that happens
> at that instant to flow into your appliance actually comes from,
> unless you're completely off grid and providing it all yourself. The
> electric grid is very well interconnected (think Enron) and the truth
> I believe is the actual energy is a mix of all the things generating
> right now. Thinking of the grid as one big mass of things that provide
> power (coal plants, wind farms, PV arrays) and things that consume
> power (hair dryers and Christmas lights) you can see you can't really
> tell what is providing your power *right now*.
>
> It's a somewhat common misconception (not saying that's what started
> this thread) that by signing up for a particular power source it
> changes what is connected to your house. The array of choices with
> deregulated power don't run a different feed to your house, it just
> changes where they buy power from, and where you send your monthly
> bill. I can attest that there is no specially installed direct power
> feed from West Texas to my roof. =)
>
> The GreenChoice program, like Green Mountain, is about accounting. If
> you sign up for Austin Energy's GreenChoice, Austin Energy will
> purchase all of the energy you use from West Texas wind farms. Simple
> as that. By doing this you actually are reducing the use of fossil
> fuels. For almost two years Austin Energy didn't sell any more
> GreenChoice power, because they didn't have any more to offer. All of
> the wind energy they had contracts for was spoken for.  They suddenly
> sold out of their capacity as soon as it became cheaper than their
> regular electricity, which largely swings with natural gas prices. The
> wind farms on the other hand are a relatively easy to calculate
> depreciating asset with minimal maintenance and reliable power
> generation, and as such have a fixed price.
>
> Hope this ramble is clear, and anyone please chime in if I'm off about
> the power grid.
>
> Erik
>
>
>
> 2008/1/14 John Penry at Texrocks <jpenry at texrocks.com>:
>   
>> Good points, Claire.
>> Living in San Antonio, I tried to get CPS to admit that their Windtricity
>> marketing was leading people to think that they are getting wind power and
>> their neighbors get coal fired electricity.  I asked the how they did it.
>> I did visit the website, and found nothing that told me how CPS directs
>> windmill electricity to my house, instead of electricity produced by other
>> means.  How is it split?
>>
>> If you were selling apples, and you had a basket of Granny Smith Apples, and
>> a basket of Delicious Apples, I could choose to pay more for the Granny
>> Smith apples, because I would get them from the Granny Smith basket.  But if
>> I cut the apples into pieces, and made a Waldorf Salad, you couldn't sell
>> two identical plates of salad and call one of them a Granny Smith Waldorf
>> Salad.
>>
>> How can you charge more for Wind electricity?  How do you separate it?
>>
>> They gave me a long answer, not a straight one.  So much for CPS.
>>
>> But, I thought the wording on the Austin Energy site sounded a bit more like
>> it was a rate lock-in, which is all these programs are.
>>
>> I did some research on the coal we use in Texas.
>> The cost of coal at the mouth of a PRB mine is approximately $5/ton
>> whereas by the time it is shipped to Texas the cost is approximately
>> $25/ton. This implies
>> that the cost of shipping the coal by rail constitutes the majority of the
>> cost of the
>> coal. In addition, current rail capacity is not unlimited and therefore, a
>> major increase
>> in unit price can be expected.
>>
>> So, locking in a rate until 2022 is not a bad thing, because the price for
>> coal energy will continue to rise as the cost of shipping the coal by rail
>> increases.
>>
>> John in Seguin
>> (Not a Customer of either CPS or Austin Energy, We get to pay for Natural
>> Gas)
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Claire Sorenson" <csorenson1 at austin.rr.com>
>> To: "'AustinEV News Announcements and General Discussion'"
>> <ausev at austinev.org>
>> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 8:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: [ausev] Austin Energy Green Choice...
>>
>>
>>     
>>> I hope I am not straying from our forum here.  If we are looking for
>>> cleaner
>>> sources of energy for our electric cars, there are some interesting things
>>> to note about the GreenChoice program.  Not to be a wet blanket, but we
>>> all
>>> use the energy from the wind farms.  Those who participate in the
>>> GreenChoice program pay more and that allows more green power to be added
>>> to
>>> the grid to replace fossil fuels for all Austin Energy customers to use.
>>> I
>>> think it is a great program.  But, at first I thought that by
>>> participating
>>> in the Green Choice program it meant my house would then run on 100% green
>>> energy.  I am curious to see if in the end the green energy actually
>>> replaces fossil fuels or just adds more total energy to the grid.  Either
>>> way it is still a good program.  I would rather have a percentage of our
>>> grid run by wind power than none at all.  Little by little we will ge
>>> there.
>>>
>>> You might also look up Green Mountain.  They buy only green energy from
>>> various sources and sell it to Texas Consumers.  The catch is that their
>>> service coverage is still limited.  See the website below.  You can plug
>>> in
>>> your zip code and see if they serve your area.
>>>
>>> http://www.electricitytexas.com/greenmountain/index.html?mrc=Ggreen+mountain
>>> &9gtype=search&9gkw=green%20mountain&9gad=585420915
>>>
>>> CS Unlimited
>>> Claire Sorenson
>>> Ph: 512-689-5911
>>> Fax: 512-282-9942
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ausev-bounces at austinev.org [mailto:ausev-bounces at austinev.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Brian Lasseter
>>> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 5:13 PM
>>> To: AustinEV News Announcements and General Discussion
>>> Subject: [ausev] Austin Energy Green Choice...
>>>
>>> For those who want to power their electric car with power from Texas wind
>>> farms...  Now is your chance.  Batch-5 GreenChoice energy became
>>> available today.   GreenChoice power has been unavailable to new
>>> customers for the past two years... since January 12th, 2006.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.austinenergy.com/Energy%20Efficiency/Programs/Green%20Choice/inde
>>> x.htm
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> TTFN,
>>> Brian "Lasso" Lasseter
>>>
>>>  ·  (512)736-1677  ·  AIM:digininja  ·  ICQ:2238123  ·  MSN:azoreg  ·
>>> "No Sane man will dance."   -Cicero (106-43 B.C.)
>>>
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