[ausev] Some familiar units to describe the HHO generator

Fri Jul 11 23:05:28 GMT 2008

Erik, I totally agree about the free-energy feeling. There have been a
number of threads on the hydrogen burning topic lately since I asked the
list about Ronn Motors, which I take some blame for. In my defense, my
question was specific to their website referencing pure electric EVs as part
of their future product lineup.

Aside from one or two comments early on, I think that the threads about
hydrogen burners have been about dispelling the hype, which EV advocates
should be fluent in. I think being informed about relevant transportation
technologies is important to our mission. There clearly is some limit, such
as limiting discussion to the efficiency of alternatives vs pure electrics,
but burying our heads in the sand isn't reasonable, either.

For instance, some reports have been released using the ANL GREET model
forcing all EVs into a single category of using the national average
emissions for electric power production. In the same reports, there are some
hydrogen production techniques that compare favorably to pure EVs (for
emissions). I take issue with this because they allow one fuel to be
evaluated on the assumption of a completely isolated fuel source, but don't
allow EVs the same luxury - using a better mix or pure renewables, for
example.  To me, this is a valid topic because of the relationship to BEVs.

I think the question gets even more grey when dicussion comes to fuel cell
vehicles. To me, they are technically EVs, but a pretty fanciful one. How
should fuel cell discussion be moderated? They are no less real than
batteries, but very expensive and inefficient - I am the first to jump in
and say so. But I think it would be short-sighted to avoid talking about
them at all.

For instance, I LOVE the drive train of the newest Honda FCX Clarity. It's
co-axial motor motor (similar concept to the one in my Ranger) is very
compact and powerful. I'd love to have one that was battery electric, and I
hope they show up in Honda's upcoming hybrid. The previous iteration had 3
(!) electric motors - one front-mounted and one on each rear axle. They have
some very impressive technologies that are unique to electric motor design
to achieve higher power and efficiency. However, the refueling station that
Honda installs with it is a natural gas reformer and the company has been
reluctant to commit to battery EVs despite their leadership in drives of
their concept cars.

My opinion is that these topics are valid as long as we keep the
conversations informative, objective and aligned with EAA's mission. Brian's
message, as well as your comments are a good example of that.

Cheers,
ian

On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 11:27 AM, Erik <electricbasset at gmail.com> wrote:

> I would really like to end the burned hydrogen topics on the EV list. Every
> website I've seen promises fantastic gains that do not align with physics
> and thermodynamics. I wouldn't be surprised if a small gain is possible,
> especially during particular operating conditions. This website advertises
> up to a 90% reduction in Green House Gas emissions. Again, maybe at idle,
> when most of the fuel burned can be hydrogen. Otherwise a 90% drop in GHG is
> equivalent to a 9X increase in fuel efficiency. If this was true everyone in
> the country would do this in a heartbeat because the savings at current gas
> prices would be amazing. This just isn't true.
>
> All that being said, the current hydrogen generator topics flavor the list
> with a "free energy" feeling. Electric cars are alternative, but there is
> nothing magical about them. The simplicity is the best part!
>
> Erik
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 11:09 AM, Marc Kohler <mkohler at austin.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Although this is starting to get slightly off topic, since the on board
>> hydrogen generation craze seems to start happening and is in competition
>> with the adoption of electric vehicles (not counting Fuel Cell Vehicles of
>> course), anyone have any ideas on these guys?
>> http://www.hydrorunner.com/
>>
>> I believe the guys at http://www.ronnmotors.com/ are using the system.
>>
>> Marc Kohler
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ausev-bounces at austinev.org [mailto:ausev-bounces at austinev.org] On
>> Behalf Of Brian Lasseter
>> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 1:53 AM
>> To: AustinEV News Announcements and General Discussion
>> Subject: Re: [ausev] Some familiar units to describe the HHO generator
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 2:25 PM, Gil Dawson <Gil at gil.dawson.name> wrote:
>> > thus:
>> >
>> >    The hydrogen gas extracted from a gallon of water
>> >    can produce more miles driven
>> >    than a pint of gasoline.
>> >
>> > That seems reasonable to me.  Does it seem reasonable to you?
>>
>> The burning of Hydrogen produces 286 kJ/mol...
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen#Combustion
>> Gasoline has an energy content of 44.4 MJ/kg...
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Energy_content
>> A mole of hydrogen weighs only 2 grams...
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mole_%28unit%29
>> Thus a kg of hydrogen has an energy content of 143 MJ/kg compared to
>> gasoline's 44.4 MJ/kg.
>>
>> A gallon of water electrolyzed produces 0.40kg of hydrogen for 57MJ of
>> energy content.  One pint of gasoline is 473cm^3, and the density of
>> gasoline is around 0.74 g/cm^3.  So... a pint of gasoline weighs
>> 0.35kg for 15.5MJ of energy content.
>>
>> So, you are correct that a gallon of water takes can produce more
>> miles driven than a pint of gasoline.
>>
>> Granted, it would take 140MJ of energy to electrolyze the gallon of
>> water at 100°C (for 0.4kg of Hydrogen)...
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-temperature_electrolysis
>>
>>
>>
>> Or, stated another way, it would take 1.1 gallons of gasoline to give
>> you the energy to electrolyze one gallon of water which would produce
>> enough hydrogen to deliver the same energy content as 0.45 gallons of
>> gasoline.
>>
>> Hence, you are better off burning the gasoline to power your car than
>> to bother with any sort of intermittent step involving hydrogen or
>> water.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> TTFN,
>> Brian "Lasso" Lasseter
>>
>>  · (512)736-1677 · AIM:digininja · ICQ:2238123 · MSN:azoreg ·
>> "No Sane man will dance." -Cicero (106-43 B.C.)
>>
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