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Ian,<br>
<br>
I agree 100% with most of what you have encapsulated here but I still
disagree with the Hydrogen efficiency issue. Fact: approx. 61,000 btu
per pound of H, approx. 20,000 btu per pound of gasoline. I haven't yet
made an estimation for batteries. There are approx. 1833 gallons of
Hydorgen gas in a gallon of H2O and the well to wheels concept
considers I believe the compression and storage of hydrogen and I also
believe it is flawed in some aspects. maybe more on that later. So if I
can extract hydrogen gas from H20 with only 12 watts of clean
electricity<br>
I've already fractured the some of the concepts of non green energy
production and efficiency<br>
issues, but like I've related and you seem to agree, truly clean energy
today is probably non-existent. I do agree chemical reaction cells are
the best source of EV power at the moment,<br>
maybe, but I truly believe hydrogen is a superior source in most
aspects if the truth is allowed to <br>
become known. There's way too much misinformation being propagated
about energy by the powers that want to be kings and masters of the
universe and as long as our minds are not open about things that some
say can be we're just supporting the wannabe dictators by giving them<br>
verification. I may be misguided about hydrogen by my disgust with
Corporate America raping us the way they are and overly hoping hydrogen
is a good source of power for EV's. But if corporate America is using
it and denouncing its attributes to control it then I think they are
not wanting us to know something very important or want us to continue
our lemming like activity. A society that just throws away things when
certain troubles arise and follows the whim of debt controllers.<br>
My hydrogen generator is very rudimentary and for a reason. It is an
experiment to establish parameters and create verifiable data.
Hopefully soon the design changes I make will establish <br>
some interesting characteristics, which are impossible to find even on
youtube, and point me in a positive direction.<br>
Wonderful discussing this with you and anyone else, but please note:
Hydrogen does not explode except in bombs or devices made for that
purpose and I'm not intending to blow any thing up.<br>
LOL.<br>
<br>
marv<br>
<br>
Ian Ward wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:efb3a0050806020136x4405cec7s98cf232029a65697@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">I think the spirit of the AUSEV mailing list charter is
specific to Austin area topics, but otherwise this is (IMO) a fairly
valid topic - how to separate fact from fiction and enable us all to be
better EV advocates. In order to do so, we must understand the
implications of the hydrogen economy that the oil industry is selling
in an attempt to derail EVs, but key is the last one:<br>
<br>
5. Electric vehicles (EVs) are an answer to the problems of oil
dependency, pollution, and energy efficiency.<br>
<br>
4. Fuel cell vehicles (FCVs) are EVs, but have additional subsystems
that could provide greater range than existing BEV technology, although
charging (electrolysis) and discharging (fuel cell) is very inefficient.<br>
<br>
3. The parts and knowledge are available to build or convert an
existing conventional vehicle to a BEV. The parts and knowledge are not
available to build a FCV.<br>
<br>
2. The average citizen already has the infrastructure to refuel a BEV.
The average citizen does not have the infrastructure to refuel a FCV
(oil companies like this).<br>
<br>
1. FCVs are about 1/3 as efficient as battery electric vehicles (BEVs).
source: Argone National Labs "Well-to-Wheels" analysis using the GREET
model<br>
<br>
Besides longer range, fuel cell proponents used to say that they could
offer faster refueling
than BEVs too, but that is no longer the case. I am confident that
battery energy density will be improved enough to meet consumer
expectations (300+ miles?) far before a fuel cell membrane can be
discovered that will be as durable at the same cost as the new
generation of
chemical batteries.<br>
<br>
The biggest myth about hydrogen is the pollution argument. It takes
energy to crack water, and if you use the current US mix of electricity
sources (to make it apples to apples with EVs), FCVs are way worse
(+65%) than internal combustion engines (ICEs) in terms of green house
gases (GHGs).<br>
<br>
If you consider any source of energy, the efficiency math is between
the added weight of the large battery and the efficiency of the H2
generation and fuel cell. Currently, the BEVs are winning (even good
old lead acids). I don't see this changing. If you consider the
incredible cost of the fuel cell components themselves vs the cost of
even a high-end lithium-ion, water-cooled AC drive, there is no way to
argue the feasibility of FCVs. Then, you have these guys that want to
BURN hydrogen using ICE conversion kits, which trades the 50%
efficiency of the fuel cell for the 15% efficiency of the ICE, and
you're going the WRONG WAY!<br>
<br>
The technology for EVs is here today and can be applied to help 80% of
Americans' commuting needs. It is here at a price that most people can
afford. The technology and prices are only getting better. You can't
say any of that about H2.<br>
<br>
If you don't trust me, please do some more research:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.evworld.com/library/abrooks_carb_nov2_05.pdf">http://www.evworld.com/library/abrooks_carb_nov2_05.pdf</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.econogics.com/ev/fcevreal.htm">http://www.econogics.com/ev/fcevreal.htm</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=49">http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=49</a><br>
<span class="a"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tr_1212292355524">http://www.switchingpowermagazine.com/</a><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.switchingpowermagazine.com/downloads/Future%20of%20the%20Electric%20Car.pdf">downloads/Future%20of%20the%20Electric%20Car.pdf</a><br>
</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/review05/anp_7_wang.pdf"><span
class="a">http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/review05/anp_7_wang.pdf</span></a><br>
<b><br>
</b>- ian<b><br>
</b>
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